ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
John Johnston
February 9, 1993
by Larry Lowenthal

My father (Booker T. Washington was his uncle)

[LL- the famous Booker T. Washington?]

Yeah, was his uncle. He's my great-uncle. My uncle, my father's brother, was business manager of Tuskegee Institute for years and gives a whole history of how Booker T. brought him, his nephew into the college with him, Yes its a good background there, but as I say I don't know too much about living down there.

[LL- But you were born in Alabama?]

Yes, Birmingham, Alabama.

[LL- And how old were you when you came up here?]

Seven years old, my father came up here in 1923. And we came up in ' 25.

[LL- And the reason he came up here was?]

This job. Superintended down to the Poli building,

[LL- That was the Poli theater?]

The whole building, that extends from the Poli theater (which is on Worthington Street) all around. At that time it included Kennedy's clothing store. It use to be Yale clothing store.

[LL-How did it happen that they hired somebody, recruited someone from Alabama?]

I don't know because, it was never understood. But he must of been under contract because he came here and the job was for him. I don't know weather he had to pay for it or what, but it was under contract he got it. I never knew the whole story but he said it was under contract and he got it.

[LL- As far as you've known had he ever been in Springfield before? ]

Never, past Alabama.

[LL- Never been up anywhere?]

No no.

[LL- So he went all the way from Alabama to Springfield and had never been anywhere in between?]

That's right. At the time there was a lawyer here, old time lawyer tavanear {?} and through him I think he got the job. (with the contact between them) how they knew each other got to write each other, new anything about the job, that never was explained. All I knew is that it was a contract job and he got it.

[LL- Where did he live, where did your family live once they got to Springfield? ]

Once we got to Springfield we lived with a couple on Vine Street in the north end. At that time it was Water Street, Vine Street was right on the end of the block there were eighteen families, nine on each side, four, five stories high at the corner of Vine and Water street.

[LL- Is that where you lived the whole time?]

We lived there, my father, my mother, Skolbo, (oldest brother) Albert, (second oldest) there were seven of us, which came up here. Two more were born up here, two girls.

[LL- So you had a big family?]

Oh yes, so we had to get out. We lived there with this other family, a man and his wife. We lived there for a year and a half, and we had to move up on the hill. We moved to a barn Hancock Street, We lived 164 Hancock Street for three years and we had five rooms.

[LL- Still renting then?]

Still renting yes. They seemed that they were going up on the rent all the time, we couldn't find any place with children. There were two children that were born girls, they were born after we moved up here so that made it nine in the family all together so it made it pretty hard to find any place around. When my father was superintendent of Poli they had all the officers in different places inside the building itself. Of course the ground floor was all the jewelry stores, restaurants, the theater, the shoe store (Tom McAn) and White Tower lunch. That didn't just run on Worthington Street and Main, they had offices in the Taylor building which was right around the corner from Main street, Myer Shade Company, up there on Walnut Street, near six corners, they stared out there on Taylor Street they owned the whole first floor so it was a big place. All the officers rented, and it was first run by Poli New England Incorporated. Poli from the home offices in New Haven. In fact my father use to drive the car, the car for Mr. Poli when he came up here.

[LL- Did you go to school in Springfield?]

Yes, I started off at Strickland at the corner of Oak and Union Street. (After Strickland closed they had a school in Islim)

[LL- Had you been to school at all in Alabama?]

No, I started up here. The first school we went to was down Hooker Street, and when we moved up there we got out of that district in Newt, to Strickland and Barrela and then Fickle

[LL- Did you go to high school too?]

Yeah, I went to tech. We couldn't find any place to live, people didn't want kids. In the building where my father lived they had a tailor, Victor Casinago, he lived in West Springfield well he had a house out in East Springfield. That had just been finished, but wasn't finished upstairs so he owned that and he sold that to my father. Of course he was right there in the building the financial arrangements were made between them. But when we got out there we were the only black family and we had a hard time. They took up a petition cause they didn't want us, and we got out there and had a hard time for the first six or seven months.

[LL-was that in the 30's after the stock market crash?]

That was yes, because I got married in 36 and we living out there five or six years before I got married. I went to tech and I use to walk out from out there to tech the high school. Where Cathedral and tech and trade were.

[LL-So you had to walk all the way in from East Springfield?]

Walk all the from the East Springfield.

[LL-What street were you living on in East Springfield?]

Merida, right behind Sewe You.

[LL-So that is the close part of East Springfield?]

Yeah, that's the close part.

[LL-Was there a trolley that you could take down Saint James?]

Saint James just went to the dry bridge and then cut off, but in between Groove Street and the dry bridge, at that time we called it the second dry bridge and the first dry bridge.

[LL- There were the bridges over the railroad tracks?]

Yeah before they developed it into like it is now, it use to be just all woods.

[LL- So your family hung out on there?]

Oh yeah, that's a funny thing, we had a big family but my mother and father were strict but they taught us to say good morning, hello, yes sir, no sir, very respectful. They had respect for people, so after six months not even a year after we moved out there, we had people come in our house for supper and kids playing that's how it was.

[LL- So you fit in?]

Right in, the first black family.

[LL- probably the only one for a long time?]

That's right, the next one,lived over on Santa Barbara Street. (just died a few years ago) She was the second one, a Johnson. But all that was woods there and it developed fast.

[LL-How did your dad get from down there to the Poli building?]

Sometimes he would take a walk. Sometimes he'd come home at three o'clock in the morning he had two jobs after he was doing that, cause the family got big. Different places like the Big E's cafe, they had to have their own clean up. When my father was through working in the daytime, then he would have two or three places more to clean up before he could go home, and we use to help him after school.

[LL- You use to help him do these clean up?]

Help him do the cleaning jobs, and use to get through about two, three o'clock in the morning. On a weekend, he didn't have to work on Saturday or Sunday, he would take off for home. Walked through Albany Street which was at that time was Gasoline Ally, no lights or nothing. But then my father got kind of tired and made a empty room down there in back of his office and put a cot there and stayed there. The only time he would come home would be on weekends and then sometimes he wouldn't come home cause his extra job. Once a month or so he had to wax this and that and he know it would take quite awhile and so he couldn't go home so he stayed on there. But he worked and worked and worked sometime he wouldn't see home for quite awhile but we would help him and he would get it done. Then even my mother would go down and help him.

[LL- Despite all the work she already did to keep the family going?]

Yeah. They denied themselves, that's one thing, they saw that the kids were brought up right.

[LL- They had no time for a lot fun and holidays?]

No no never, the only thing my father did he loved baseball, of course all the boys and girls new was Yankees. He was there when New York Giants got in the world series, he was there he went to them all.

[LL- That was the Mel Ott and Carl Hubbel?]

Oh yeah, could get into some fine arguments there.

[LL- Did he play baseball up here?]

No he never played baseball, no time, he just new about it followed it. He was security down there, he had a pearl handled .38 that he carried with him, he had a permit and a uniform. You know, he use to tell us a story, our mother wouldn't tell us. Down south they have outhouses, so the outhouse was quite aways back from the house itself. So he went out there one night, late at night. He always had a gun he carried with him. There was something that happened, but geewizz whatever it was he was in the outhouse, whatever it was the next thing she now he was in the house. He had left the outhouse and everything and the gun and everything. All he knew was that it was a loud noise, he heard a noise or something but he left the gun and everything. He didn't want to hear anything else.

[LL- How old were you when you started working for him?]

Sixteen seventeen years old. Of course before that we would come by after school and see if he needed help, but officially I started when I was eighteen years old.

[LL- Right after high School?]

Right after high school. Of course my older brothers started working there regular before I did.

[LL- So there was enough work to have several of the same family working there?]

Oh yeah, the only two who children (boys) that didn't work were my brother Frank who lives in Detroit and my brother Fred who lives in Boston, they never worked. My brother Scott which was the oldest, my brother Albert which was the next oldest and myself we worked there. My brother Scott left there and went to work after he got married for H.L. Handie in Briarwood, which use to be run by Swiftin Company. And Britewood would do the slaughtering for some twenty something years. In fact he had disability for retirement because he had Hodgkin's disease and he died when he was thirty four years. He played baseball for the Philadelphia All Stars, good field no hit. He weighed 200 something pounds and when he died he weighed seventy six pounds.

[LL-You were working for your father up until the time he got the Armory job?]

Yes, that's right. And I got married in '36 I'd say I worked for my father for three, four years then I put in for the Armory, I didn't say anything to him.

[LL- Didn't tell him anything?]

NO no, I was just gonna see how it was gonna come out.

[LL- How did you find out that the Armory was hiring?]

A fellow come up that worked there. I can't recall his name, a black fellow, he was a boss over there that he use to have a big car he use to ride.

[LL- At the Armory?]

Yeah at the Armory.

[LL- What kind of job was he doing at the Armory do you remember that?]

He was a boss, a section he had.

[LL- in one of the shops?]

[LL- So he told you that they were hiring?]

Yeah.

[LL- So what did you have to do then, did you put in an application? ]

Yes, filled out an application.

[LL- Was there a test?]

There was a form that had some questions, then they sent you in for a physical. I filled out a form say in the first of November, and about the 21st or so they wanted a physical then got a call to come in. I went right to work.

[LL-You started right then?]

Right then. I worked one day up the hill plant and then after that for three in a half years or so was down at the Water Shop.

[LL- And just to get the time straight,the war was already on, it was after pearl Harbor and the Armory was running at top speed?]

Yes, full blast they had three shifts. In fact at the height of it my wife went to work there in the 104 building,that was my gun slot. She worked there for a year and a half, at the height of it. I worked at the Water Shop at the three to eleven shift all the time. I was there till about a year of so before I left because I transferred. I changed to the 11 to 7 because of baseball.

[LL- you couldn't play baseball if you were working the three to eleven? ]

That's right, that was the dead shift. In fact they use to have the theaters use to have matinees for the 3 to 11 dead shifters, you know too early to go to bed. so they use to have those. When I transferred they sent me down to Water Shop I was first cleaning out shavings out of the machine where the barrel turns, small barrels ... 16. And then after I didn't that for three or four months they gave me a try on the barrel turner machine.

[LL-running the machine?]

Running the machine yes. And then they got a quota, put out 500 barrels a night so they had to go pretty good. then they had on the books a bonus system all the group in there would be would go by how much they turned out. Of course with that kind of system they didn't pay you no change. All that change was added up and you get it every three months, all the change that you would have gotten in you pay in all the change was all accumulated.

[LL- So they only paid you in round a dollar?]

That's right, that's another thing, we use to work in the war those holidays you know, straight time but they never paid and they promised, but they never did.

[LL- You were running a machine that was smoothing the outside of the barrel, like a lathe type thing?]

A lathe that would take the raw barrel and turn it down to the regular dimensions of a barrel.

[LL- that was before it was rifled?]

Oh yes. After that that I would chuck barrels when it was slow I would chuck barrels for the riflers. They would have the rifles us there and do ten or fifteen barrels a night that's all.

[LL-Because it was as slow process?]

Oh yes, they made good money. They use to be on a pay system too, I use to keep them filled with barrels, good barrels. And the end when they got paid I use to get a little of their chuck to for keeping them with barrels. There were some barrels that would come off of different blades, there were some machinists said that their barrels were hard to rifle. they said that their barrels that come off of their machines were different than ours and hard to rifle I don't know what it was but they said it was different than ours. I know those little things that would make it easier for them so they would kick back.

[LL-Cause they were getting paid on the piece work?]

That's right. And those inspectors could easily throw them, rifling is a very important job. ( no sound]

[LL- Just go on with what you were saying with the barrel straightening]

There are a lot of tricks to any trade. but they look to the barrel rifle of one of the most important jobs there. Its like taking 150 cases of milk and so and so in that batch is not such a hot thing for easy consumption. If you got four screws it seems that one is gonna give you a hard time all time. If you can get three out a11 right you have to work hard on it. Just like getting those barrels off of the machines, you got the good and bad and fair. This machine is no matter who sets it up, if it comes off of there it matters.

[LL- What happens to those barrels, it seems that somebody had to rifle them after awhile, who did that?]

Well they always tried to leave that for the other shift. But sooner or later the inspector would just say throw them out and that's a waste cause no one wanted them so they just went into scrap.

[LL- But they decided that before they even tried to rifle them just from looking at them?]

That's right. They were taking this batch and that batch, putting reject on that.

[LL- Didn't that hurt that person who worked on that barrel up to that point, they wouldn't get credit for it then?]

Well they some how worked that in there. They went on so much time that he was working on piece work and then so much time on day work. Each machine was in a group. Now each one of those machines had to take some day work and that's how they split it up.

[LL- Nobody lost out?]

Nobody lost out. Those were some of the things of waste but that was during the war.

[LL- Did you go on doing that same job during your entire time at the Armory?]

Yes I was either on the full time trucking.

[LL- When you say trucking, you mean carry them on a car?)

Yes trucking that's what they call it

[LL-Just moving it from one shop to another?]

That's right, after that position it goes to another position following that. And then you brought them back to where they were going.

[LL- Were you still working the machines while you were doing that was that just part time?]

Well there was slow time, you had slow time there where you got ahead.

[LL- You were head of rifling?]

That's right exactly. They stacked them up, you knew that when the inventory over there was staked up. You would get off and only run one or two machines. But at your full stock they would put more rifling on.

[LL- Were there a lot of people working in the same shop as you doing more or less the same thing?]

Yes, on one floor down in the Water Shop, you had a section and upstairs they had the big ones.

[LL- Machine-guns you think?]

Big ones, I forget what they call them but that was upstairs.

[LL- So that would be the aircraft cannons and stuff?]

I can't recall it. It was a good job. You handled those rifling machines so much that you could see little steel slivers all in your hands. You would be going so fast sometimes before the machine even stopped you had to put the next one in. Of course they only had men on those machines when they first started off but then they got short so they had to put women on.

[LL- On the same kind of machine you were doing?]

Yes the women, oh yes.

[LL- So you were working right with the women?]

Oh yes.

[LL- So one shift might be a women and one might be a man?]

That...

[LL- did you do any of the training, teaching of them?]

Yes I did. I was very good at it, I wasn't fast but I was good at barrel turning. They had a section manager, they didn't call him a manager but a boss. Then they had an operations boss, but then you had about three bosses. But I got in good with them so I went up pretty good.

[LL-Do you remember the names of any of those people?]

Hank Cobana wsa my immediate boss.

[LL- Your section boss?]

Yeah. Of course Paul Parent was a big man, he limped. He was an operations boss from the plant down there. Of course you had most of that time officer of the day, military officers. But Hank Cobana Paul Parent.

[LL- Were there other black people working in the shops back then?]

Oh yeah quite a few. Fact in that section there there were about 50 in my shift, I'd say about half of them were black.

[LL- Men and women both?]

Yes that's right. They got along good.

[With each other or the white people?]

With each other, both. I think when the change came when the war ended. If the soldier was at Westover they settled right there. That's why you got the different population. If the soldier was at Westover they settled right there, wherever they were they settled, especially from the South they were forced all the time practically. They would send the people that were mostly residents of the South, they would send them North in the army.

[LL- Is that what was happening here at the Armory were they being brought in from the South coming in from the South?]

Now I'm talking about the service now. The service. You wouldn't take a soldier from the South and have him stationed in the South. You would send him away, up North to different places out of his home area. So when the South came to the North and the war was ? they found out all the liberties and everything they had here, then they just settled where they were.

[LL-sure they didn't want to go back?]

They didn't want to go back because of the kind of liberties they had here compared to down there.

[LL- Yeah at that time it was still segregated?]

That's it see, that would change the whole population. Here before you knew everybody, walking along the streets you knew this one and that one. You didn't keep your door locked. But as I say, the whole thing changed when the population changed when the war ended.

[LL- Were these black people that were working during the war, they mostly local families?]

[LL- So they were not people coming up from the South?]

Ohh no. . .

[So there must have been more of a black population here than people realized?]

That's right, that's right. Even at that time, most of your workers worked at the train station as porters shoe shines or something like that ... and when these places opened up for them, you know like the Armory and during the war. Then after they got a taste of that they were going for the other jobs that were coming up later on.

[LL- They didn't want to go back to being the rat cats?]

[LL- That makes sense. ]

Yeah, certainly. Its the first time that they really tasted something. But it was all local area workers,

[LL- Were they people you knew before, maybe in your neighborhood? ]

Yeah that's right. Yeah most of the time you knew everyone that worked at the Armory. You know within reason, because some would come from Southwick, some different places because it was , a drain here and they would run out. So they had to recruit them from around the areas.

[LL-Then you say you only stay at the Armory for about a year and a half?]

That's right.

[LL- How did that happen that you left?]

Well it just slowed down and than layoff so you were trying to get something before everybody else.

[LL- Would you have stayed if you could, you wouldn't have left?]

Oh yes, it was a good place.

[LL- but you knew that once it started closing down that you would be out of a job?]

Yes that's right.

[LL- Did you leave first or did they let you go first, which came first?]

No I left. The thing about it is that they put on a stipulation, that you could not go unless you went into another defense job. So at the time I knew three or four fellows that use to work at Uniroyal .

[LL- In Chicopee?]

Chicopee and they had the money,it was good. So I took advantage of that and I got into Uniroyal. That's the only way I could leave, because I had to be in another defense job.

[LL- Was the war still going on at that time?]

Yes, just the tail end.

[LL- Late 45?]

Yup.

[LL- so then you went up to Uniroyal at that time?]

Uniroyal, I worked there four or five years.

[LL- Never went back to the Armory?]

No never went back to the Armory. Of course when did they phase it out?

[LL- It closed for good in '68]

Yeah, but it was a good place to work and as I said it was all locally until they drained them out.

[LL- First of all, was there a team there at the time you came?]

NO. Ok so it started after you were already there, Yup that was the first one.

[LL- That would have been summer of '42 maybe, not even till 43?]

No 43. We use to kill time around on the field out there, Ruth Elizabeth down there fooled around, we knew some of the fellows. The manager (Tancreti ?) had some experience, got fellows together. We started with the softball team ox the magazine street, magazine playground over there.

[LL-Yeah those fields are still over there. Is that where this picture is taken?]

No that was taken out at Blunt Park. That was our home field. But he started a softball team and then Tancreti was manager of one of the little league teams so he put the idea into the major. He was a baseball enthusiast, he was a nice man, say about 35 years old. He had a Water Shop down there, and sometimes officer of the day stayed over night. Tancreti used to run a machine up those big barrels up there. He got to talking with us, I knew him through a fellow who use to play down at Ruth Elizabeth all the time. That's when all the playgrounds were used, not like now that they are misused. They were used, full: all the time. They had caretakers, people that were assigned there to teach this and that. They all were full. A gym, baseball, or something for girls. They were crowded and now they are run down. Just to give you an example, Dunbare which is up here on Oak Street. In Harambi time they had this basketball quart up Walnut street they would have the city fix it up. But then after the war, the things about it changed. They would have the Harambi there basketball and the next day after the Harambi was over they would tear the place up, and they couldn't keep that place up. But when it come time for Harambi they would fix it up. Now in fact you can see where they tore one of the big porch down and put it on the ground over there. And then we say we have no place to play. That's just like going on a riot and burning your own house down and saying that we haven't any place to live. But that's the way it is, but its mostly the big kids that are doing it. The little kids are around and have there area and the big kids come around and brush them aside. They would fix it up just for that and then after it was over they would tear it down, then they haven't gotten any place to play.

[LL- Were there tryouts for these teams or did he know the people? ]

He knew the people, everyone of them. You had to break through to put it in the Armory head. They never had anything like that.

[LL- They did long before, like W I had a ball team, this was probable the first in many many years?]

Yes... the triple A Industrial League.

[Someone got uniforms for you too?]

Yup that's it and after the end of the season we got beautiful jackets.

[LL- Who paid for that?]

The Armory.

[LL-So they did it for public relations?]

That's right.

[LL- Too bad you don't have it anymore?]

Oh you think about those things and at the time you wear it out. As I said, Blunt Park was our home field.

[LL- How many teams were in this Triple A League, approximately anyway? ]

About ten.

[LL- So you played a pretty full schedule?]

Yes.

[LL- This team seems like a small one there are only 3 six, eight twelve people in uniform?]

That's right we started off late you know what I mean. We couldn't field any more. I don't know how many years that lasted.

[LL-You couldn't of had many pictures then if you only had a total quad of ??]

No.

[LL- What did they have the same person pitching again?]

Yeah, that was before they got these specialists pitching every game.

[LL- How often would you play, like every night?]

No they had a schedule like they do now. That was the Tri-County League, it was the same thing, this is all Industrial League.

[LL-who was your pitcher, do you remember?]

I don't remember. One of these two right here, this one I think he went to motorcycle policeman.

[LL-the one standing right next to you?]

Yeah, Bill Brady he's dead now. Of course Kenny Malone he was an outfielder, he's still around, played with the Giants with me.

[LL- That's why your wearing the Giants?]

Yes, anyway that was when I first came in here.

[LL- But later on you got the Armory shirt?]

Oh yeah.

[LL- What position were you playing?]

Short Stop, I played the infield. I started off as a third baseman.

[LL-Covered a lot of territory?]

Well between the two I like the hot corner the best, either you do or you don't. Of course after a while we were getting beat so much that is wasn't too good it got so that you didn't like going out there and getting beat.

[LL-Is that what was happening to this Armory team?]

Yes that's what was happening.

[LL- Did you ever win a game?]

Yes we won. You know what they say, even the lowest team can beat the best team sometime.

[LL- Some of these other companies I guess had bigger teams?]

Oh sure, in Westinghouse, Bosch.

[LL-They probably put more effort into it?]

Well a lot of people went there to work, that were athletes. The Armory you didn't have much choice to pick anybody. The Armory wasn't paying the the money that the private people were paying.

[LL-Did people come after the team formed and try to get on it?]

One or two, but the ones that were there were the ones that finished up with it.

[LL- Its not a big squad, compared to what these other teams had?]

No, no, to tell you the truth we were surprised that we got it. We got uniforms and then after the season we got jackets. Because Tancredi (?) was a politician and in fact he was a politician after he left there. He was in the common council and then he ran a barber shop up there at Sumner avenue.

[LL- Were you still playing on this Giants team at the same time?]

No, I played with them one season.

[LL- With the Giants?]

No the Armory.

[LL- But it went on more beyond that?]

Oh yes, I think it was two years. But then it got so the morale wasn't so I went with the Blue Socks. The Blue Socks were a black team that were put together from the North End. The Giants was put together from the hills here.

[LL- So it was pretty strong rivalry here?]

That's right, Blue socks and the Colored Giants. Of course the perennial ones that started the whole black was the Colored All Stars.

[LL- Where were they from?]

They were from here, they were all from the city.

[LL- but not all from one neighborhood?]

But not just from one neighborhood.

[LL- Where did you play these games?]

Down at pension Park, you know like Milton Bradley would have there team there and Murphy he use to bring those teams in like Black Berihmghan and Black Barren and all those, he used to bring all those into Pension Park.

[LL-So you would get black teams from other cities, would come in like the All Star Team from here?]

That's right. Like Leroy Best, use to play with the Philadelphia Giants. You know that Leroy was ??? grandfather.

[LL- Were they playing teams from the negro leagues, the black big leagues at that time?]

Yes, you had the Kansas City Monarch, sure you had on Sunday down there the park would be full, and a lot of whites would come down and watch there.

[LL- so that was a higher level baseball than what they saw otherwise?]

Yes, now Murphy use to run the Murphy baseball team so his athletic association was the one that would bring these teams in. I don't know how much had to pay, but they footed the bill. They had an All Star team made up of all the different..,

[LL- Like when Babe Ruth and those teams would go on tour]

That's right.

[LL- What would happen when the All Stars would play these pro teams who would win usually?]

You know according to how the crowd was.

[LL- The Pro teams weren't playing up to their full?]

Oh no, they would put on a show. They were there for the children, they knew that they could do it again.

[LL- More like the Globetrotters?]

That's right, the only difference was that they didn't have the same team following behind them all the time, you know like the Globetrotters ... What is it the Senators team or something.

[LL- Yeah that captive team.]

But oh yes, they use to bring them in on holidays or weekends, they would have Berihmghan or Black Barren and have local talents and some one to play with them. They tried to get them to have relatives or someone who lived here.

[LL- Where would these visiting teams stay over when they came

in? ]

Coolie, the one down there on Main Street. Cause that's where all the different baseball and sports teams use to head.

[LL- And it was near the train station.]

Yeah, sure. The thing about it is that they didn't have to pick. Didn't have a great bunch to pick from.

[LL-At the Armory?]

No they didn't. As I say those other places they.