ORAL HISTORY: STANLEY T. DESMOND

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ORAL HISTORY: STANLEY T. DESMOND

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ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
Stanley T. Desmond
August 11, 1986
by Barbara Higgins Aubrey
Aubrey - Had you grown up in this area around Springfield?
Desmond - No, no I formally came from Nova Scotia, and I came to Everett, Mass. I served my apprenticeship at General Electric in Lynn, Mass. And from then I received my certificate as a die and tool maker. And that was my love all through my life. I mean my second love. (laughter)
Aubrey - How did you happen to come to Massachusetts from Nova
Scotia? Do you have friends or family from here?
Desmond - Oh yes. My uncles had all moved here, moved to Everett and Malden, in that vicinity there. So, I came up and went to schools in Everett, Mass. I graduated from there and then I became an apprentice at the General Electric at the River Works in Lynn, Mass. Of course at that time it was 4 1/2 years to be a die and tool maker. So you worked all the way from the foundry to the pattern maker, to the pattern maker to the machine shop. The machine shop to drafting, and six months at engineering. It made me well qualified to get a job. And of course, as there were few or not any colored tool makers or die makers I met a lot of opposition at General Electric, because I applied for an apprenticeship, and they said come on. The atmosphere wasn't too well at that time. It was too bad you know. I got along, but a good many times even at nineteen or twenty years old I would cry when I got home because, I had been hurt during the day. I was a
stranger of a different race, and all like that. It was wonderful when we all finished our courses. We were good friends and we're good friends today.
Aubrey - Were there any other men of other races as well?
Desmond - No, they were just what you may say were Irish, and well all Americans I mean. They didn't mix too well at that time.
Aubrey - That had not gotten to think of themselves as the basic white race. Forgotten how many times there were signs out that said Irish need not apply. Forgot all about that.
Desmond - As I say they were Irish, Danish, and Swedish. No dark-skinned people.
Aubrey - No Chinese, no Indians?
Desmond - No, not at that time. Of course I wasn't (?) the first.
Aubrey - You must have felt pretty lonely at times?
Desmond - I did. As I say even at that age I'd go through it all day long. On my way home from work, or at night when I was in bed I would shed a few tears. And I'd say that "I want to be a die and tool maker and that's all there is to it. So I'll put up with it.
Aubrey - Were you living with family, you aunts or something?
Desmond - Yes, my aunt.
Aubrey - So at least you had some loving support.
Desmond - Yes, that's right.
Aubrey - They may have thought you were crazy at times.
Desmond - Oh, no it was nice. It paid off all through my life, because there were layoffs at a good many places where I worked. They always bypassed me. Those who were my employers didn't feel that way as long as you could produce and produce well. And excel in your field, which was my goal to excel. I had a lot of competition, I had to not only do well, but better just to hang in there. They sent me up to Schenectady when I finished my course. I worked up there on electrical devices and it was all die work. I love die work.
Aubrey - Once you were trained for this you didn't have trouble
with difficult times?
Desmond - Yes, they were difficult times. But, I was determined that was all. This far offset any feelings that I might have had about relations.
Aubrey - When did you finish with the apprentice school, when was it approximately?
Desmond - It was in 1922. As I say, I was sent up to Schenectady to G.E. up there. I worked on motor laminations and whatever they had in their line.
Aubrey - How did you hear about Schenectady?
Desmond - Well, when one graduated they had the opportunity to either stay there and become leaders and foremen, and supervisors. I had the urge to travel a little bit, and see just how the other fellow made things. Which helped in the long run.
Aubrey - And this was all which company?
Desmond - General Electric. First at the River Works then up to Schenectady. So I stayed there for about 2 years and a half.
Aubrey - How was the climate in Schenectady, where you still the only African-American?
Desmond - Yes, I was the only one up there. Then at that time, I had to meet with ?Mr. Steinett. He was one of the main engineers at the G.E. up there. I had an opportunity to meet with him. Since I was the only one we became very friendly. He was a little short man, and kind of deformed a little bit. A little eccentric, but we got along fine. I had a sweetheart in Everett. She went to New York to go to Hunter College. I hadn't seen her for some time, so I came down to New York. I got a job for Bell Telephone Laboratories, as a model maker, it was experimental. She lived in Greenwich. Her father was a caretaker on a large estate in Greenwich, Connecticut. She formerly came from Massachusetts too. This Mr. ?Wahl, the one with the big mill up in Lawrence moved to Greenwich. He had a beautiful home it was like a castle almost, well it was a castle. We did a lot of our courting, and finished up our courting [in Greenwich] as strange as it may seem.
Aubrey - Where had you met here?
Desmond - I met her in Everett. We went to the same church together, the same Sunday school, and graduated together, and all like that. She went her way, she went to New York. I went on up to Schenectady. When I found out she was at Hunter College I came down there. We were married there, we had a beautiful wedding. Her name was Ethel. We raised a family of 16 children. Always one after an other.
Aubrey - How many boys, and how many girls?
Desmond - Six boys and ten girls. The boys are all in the service. I lost one boy in the marines, in marine group 11. He was killed there.
Aubrey - Which theater was he in?
Desmond - Tom, my oldest, was in Korean War. The mother of our children [Ethel] never complained about anything. She was a wonderful person. I came home one time she said she had a little pain in her side. I took her to the hospital, and they performed an exploratory. She had cancer. That was in November, and the first day of spring she went away, she passed. But, in the mean-time when I was in New York with Ethel, I didn't want to stay with Bell Telephone Laboratory. I loved it and it was exciting because it was always something new all the time. As I say, she lived in Greenwich. After finishing school she didn't want to stay there either. I always wanted a government job, a civil service job. At that time that was in '40, the government service was looking for die and tool makers. So I filled out and application and sent it in., [I] came down for an interview. The old postal hospital was up on the hill, [there] I was examined and accepted. So I moved down here. I lived in Springfield at that time right off of Hancock Street. I moved my family up from Greenwich where they lived. I bought a little house up on Quincy Street. [It] was kind of small, I had a little
difficulty getting into it. I bought the place in November, and I wasn't able to get into it until April. Had a family in there and I couldn't get them out to save my life. I'd do everything around there from work around to fix this and fix that. Just make myself a general nuisance. I told that I wanted to get into my home. I didn't charge them any rent. I didn't want that hold over my head, that well we're paying our rent. At that time I had ten children, so what I did was threaten them. It was a small house, and I told them that we [the Desmonds all intended to move in together. They found a way to get out then. But, that was my intention because I was with the Armory. My relationship with the Armory was beautiful. At that time, a Mr. Dave Turner was the Water Shop Supervisor.
Aubrey - He was your first boss?
Desmond - He assigned me to the Water Shop's machine shop. I worked with Mr. Gelinas, he was a foreman of the machine shop. At the Armory at that time there were a lot of old-timers, and I was on the young side. Thank goodness I had accumulated a lot of information and knowledge about the trade. It wasn't too long
before I was holding my own. The old-timers were a little reluctant because there had never been a colored die and tool maker there. People had been there for years and years and years, and too see someone young, and of a different nationality. They were adults and it was hard for them to accept it.
Aubrey - How old were you when you came to the Armory?
Desmond - I was twenty-six. I.was young and they were older men there, not too many young men there. They were all prima-donnas in their field. Some would make this part of the gun, another would make another part of the gun. These were parts they had made for years. I was doing so well, that they lined me up with an engineer. We designed dies, because a lot of components at that time were dropped forged, and they wanted to go into stampings. They wanted to see if they could make these [dies] out of sheet metal. I worked along with ?Mr. Siser, we developed some of the guides there. [Shows examples of various dies and tools, such as a progressive die he designed. Desmond also shows the interviewer a number of ammunition shells.
Aubrey - Describe your job relative to this (examples)?
Desmond - Developing the tools to make these components, that was part of my work. My write-up was to develop, fabricate, and make these dies, that was it. I worked with ?Mr. Siser, he would make sketches for me. [shows sketches] This [sketches] is all the information I had to make these dies. That's it. He would put the dimensions on the sketches and it was for me to interpret and to make the progressive dies. The
different steps, so it would come out as this.(shows more dies)
Aubrey - No wonder it took you four years to learn?
Desmond - This was something I loved. This was very seldom, it may be a little bit more. I had made a die, because this die is in a press which goes up and down like this.
Aubrey - What did you do reach for it at the wrong minute?
Desmond - At the wrong minute, and I came up three and a half fingers short.
Aubrey - Did this happen at the Armory?
Desmond - Before I went to the Armory, and they hired me despite this. I was so fearful that when I went there for an interview and a physical that were libel to shake their heads and say no. The army hospital was on top of the hill. I don't know where they examined the applicants afterward, but at the time they were military men and that's where you were checked out. But, they hired me, and I was happy too. This is my bible here (showing the book) .
Aubrey - Your bible has what title?
Desmond - Die Design, and Die we Practice. I have a set of books, and while I was in the trade I subscribed to every magazine and kept me abreast of what was happening out there.
Aubrey - What kind of magazines?
Desmond - Machinery Magazine from McGraw Hill and the other one was American Machinist. My wife was always giving me something in my field. She gave me subscriptions to these two magazines so I was able to know what was going on.
Aubrey - Did you have brothers and sisters who were pursuing this kind of business, or were you strictly a pioneer.
Desmond - I was strictly a pioneer. My sister came up to Massachusetts and she met the Plotkins, this Jewish family. They were wealthy, and she worked for them. She helped raise their children.
Aubrey - Where did the Plotkins live?
Desmond - In Brookline Mass., then they had a place down at the Cape. My sister she worked with them all the years, and raised their boys. They were just like her. [My sister Mabel never married.
Aubrey - It's a lucky family that finds a woman like that.
Desmond - That's my sister Mabel. She was a wonderful woman, and they loved her. Even when she passed two years ago, I went to pay for her funeral and he said "it had already been taken care of".

tape 1, side 2

Desmond - As I said I was at the Armory. My children did so well in school that I'd always send them to camp. But, with a large family like that I sent them to 4H camp, or to private camp up in South Brookfield. This is what I said, if you want to go to camp, I like to see some A's and B1s, which they did. So many of them did so well in school, I bought a little place up in Savoy, sixty acres. We'd-spend a summer up there.
Aubrey - How did you get back and forth to work?
Desmond - I came down everyday for a while. It was in a place called Savoy, it gets pretty rough up there in the Berkshires. Therefore, I would come home Wednesdays and Fridays. They would take care of things up there. It was 61 acres at first. They liked it so well, and we were in a small house. A family from New York, a Dr. Keeler, he had a big house up on the hill. I said how would you folks like to live up there the year round. Of course, those who were in high school, said we have all our friends here. Kind of hard breaking away. They must have gotten into a huddle, because a couple of days later they came and said O.K. daddy and mudda, that's what they called her. So, I moved them up to Savoy. That was a beautiful experience in my life. We were the first colored up in Savoy. It was a small one room school, the Brier school. In the Brier they called it. There was a columnist that wrote for the Springfield Union called Mr. Malcolm. He wrote a column Hilltown Neighbors. Where you ever in Springfield to read that, Our Hilltown Neighbors? He said that, Savoy had a big surprise. A family, he didn't say colored or white or anything like that moved in. We had our one room school here and we had to change everything around for them. It was beautiful, and the relationship was beautiful up there too. We were included in everything up there. There was no distinction, the barn dances, the sewing circles, the church, and they were active in church. Same thing when they went to the high school in Adams, and from there they went to North Adams. So quite a few of them graduated from up there. But, it was a wonderful experience. They looked forward to it. Instead of the 61 acres that we had at first, a bought other acreage which came to 250 acres.
Aubrey - That's quite a piece (of land) .
Desmond - Oh, it was quite a piece. So therefore, I had the children there, I thought I would do something to make the place self-supporting. So I got a contract with a place in Deerfield, that make pickles. So I raised ten acres of cucumbers for them on contract. They took care of that. I had a contract with Adam's Supermarket in Adams to raise forty acres of potatoes. Of course, they took care of the farm, and I stayed at the Armory.
Aubrey - So how were you getting back and forth? Did you keep a place here in Springfield?
Desmond - No, I sold my home here. When I decided to stay, and be down here long and not travel back and forth I rented a room on St. James Avenue with one family. And then on Westminster street with another family. I changed at two places. The farm was self-supporting. Up there they joined the 4H. They would even go to the 4H camp, or to Goshen to the DAR camp up there, which was nice. That's how Savoy became an important part of my life.
Aubrey - How often did you go back and forth?
Desmond - Wednesdays and weekends, because I'd have to plow and do the heavy work. We cut down the trees. I had a hitch on my big tractor. [We] had tractors out here, [one] had a saw on it. Then we saw up [the wood] and then we would put it in the shed for the winter. We managed very well.
Aubrey - Was it an old house?
Desmond - It was an old house, yeah. It was in pretty good condition, but we fixed it up little by little and made it real livable. My wife, this wife [Ethel] was a pianist. We made it so sound that we were able to bring in an upright piano. She went to school and took music at the Boston Conservatory of Music. She used to play all this beautiful music and we would all gather around the piano, she would play and we would sing. It was one of the most important parts of my life. She passed while I was at,\the armory. I was a widow for two years. Then I met this girl from' Agawam. She was born here, her mother was born here, and her grandmother was born here. Her great grandfather went out west during the gold rush in 1849. And found enough gold to come back and buy fifteen acres in Agawam. They were the first people African-Americans in
Agawam.
Aubrey - Was it this very house?
Desmond - Yes, this very house. It's been changed though, added on to. This is the nucleus of it, this was added here, and that was added there. Where the toilet was outback and outdoors sometime way back long in the past. If you every read the story of Agawam, there is a book about Agawam they're mentioned in that.
Aubrey - What was the family name?
Desmond - Banks and Jones. They were the first colored family to come here.
Aubrey - Now where did you meet her?
Desmond - I met her going to the St. John's church in Springfield on Hancock Street, because I lived on Quincy Street. I loved church and church has been a big part of my life. She was a Sunday school superintendent there. But, at that time that's what she was, and I was married. I didn't even notice her, except to talk with her about how my children were doing in Sunday school.
I didn't see her for two years after my wife died. I was downtown at the Waldorf Restaurant, and she was sitting over there. I said "I think I know that lady." She looked at me and I
looked at her and we became acquainted all over again. That was the night that there was a fire that night. We ran out and the fire-engines were going by. That was back when I met her in '59 and we were married in '60.
Aubrey - Were any of your children still at home?
Desmond - No I had my children up in Savoy.
Aubrey - Were they all grown up by then?
Desmond - There were some old enough to take care of the younger ones. There were some young ones, real young ones so I hired a housekeeper. She was a French lady, she was wonderful. Before I drove back to Springfield I would drive to Adams pick her up. She would stay there all week with my children. Then when I came in on a Friday night, I would take her back to Adams. That was the arrangement we had. She was a wonderful person.
Aubrey - What was her name?
Desmond - Jones, Christina Jones. Her husband was a policeman up there. She did a beautiful job with my children taking care of the responsibility. She had separated from her husband. She wanted to get kind of friendly. I didn't, she was a wonderful person, but she passed. That's the story of my life more or less. As far as the Armory's concerned it was a beautiful experience.
Aubrey - Your first job was down at the Water Shops with Mr. Gelinas?
Desmond - Yes.
Aubrey - And you worked with Mr. Siser?
Desmond - ?Mr. Siser, Bill ?Siser.
Aubrey - What was his position?
Desmond - He was a die engineer on the hill. He worked on sheet-metal and he had a fellow working with him named Ralph. I forget Ralph's last name there. We were a team. Mr. ?Siser had the ideas, and he would make the sketches. Just like this here (shows sketches). No blueprints were made until the die was fully
developed. This is all progressive dies, the single-station dies they were doing that before. They would take one little piece and put it into single operation. Then I would bend it up and go to the next station, these were all separate tools. Then when they got to the place that they made them on floor slide, or the big Henry ?Enrights. The Henry ?Enright1s were the clippers on the machines. The bliss presses, could take up to twelve stations. Each station is where the metal goes along progressively. The final step is when the last piece of metal is taken off. These were all different stations.
Aubrey - What were the other type of die you mentioned, you said these were progressive dies.
Desmond - At first they had single-action die, just one operation. Then they had to put another die in and do the second operation. This press (shows die) made it all in one complete operation. Each one was doing it's work. One would pierce it, another one would lance it, and another would fold it as it went through.
Aubrey- Did you actually get to run the machine that was doing
this yourself?
Desmond - No, I did at first because I had to develop it. I had to put all the components into one big die set. After it was perfected and the changes made then an operator would be on there. That was one phase. Then they came to a place where they were making parts for NATO (North Atlantic Treaty Organization). They would get Italian guns, or German guns or whatever like that and improvise on them. This was one of my projects, a belt for the machine gun. * shows belt for the machine gun
Aubrey - It's flexible.
Desmond - It was flexible, because it had to go through the machine gun. It had a great big long curl. I also developed components for the .50 caliber. This was a trigger guard. At first it was a forging.
Aubrey - That first case you're showing me, what was this called for the benefit of the tape?
Desmond - This is the magazine. The shells spit up into the gun. And they had the clips for the MI, Mr. Garand's rifle. After the war people there was quite a shuffle there, people were shifted here or there, or laid off. Here is the irony of it. I was promoted to die-maker leader, grade 21. At the forge shop they
ceased to produce. Mr. Nelson had charge of the forge shop. Mr. James Flanagan had charge of the press room. So they sent them over to me to supervise them. To work with me as a team. Of
course this was rather hard. Mr. Nelson had charge of the forge shop, which was across from the Water Shop, where all the forging was done.
Aubrey - You were supposed to supervise him?
Desmond - I supposed to tell him what to do. One had to be very diplomatical. You wouldn't say do this or do that. You would say do you want to give us a hand on this or something like that. The same with Mr. Flanagan, James Flanagan who was in charge of the press room he must have a couple hundred people under him, he worked with me. Finally Mr. Nelson quit. He lived down in Southwick, and had been there a good many years and reached the retirement age. Mr. Flanagan wasn't a well man so he stopped. This was after the war [and] the Water Shop wasn't doing too well so they wanted to consolidate operations. They gave me some men and I worked up on the hill. The gave me some men and a section in the machine shop
up there.
Aubrey - Which building?
Desmond - 111, upstairs in 111. Mr. McCarthy was the foreman up there. In fact they asked me what machines I wanted from the Water Shops up there. I had two Bridgeports, and a press. I had about five machines moved up on the hill. I had my little section there, and they had some men go with me. So I went there for awhile, with ?Mr. Siser to work on a project.
Aubrey - What year would that be about?
Desmond - It was after the war, we were floundering around quite a bit there. In the 501s, I'm sure it was around there. From the Water shop up to the hill I took five men with me. They still had men working down at the Water Shops. After we finished our project there, I went back to the Water Shops. When things were
kind of slack, so many men if they wanted to could go to the Model Shop. From the Water Shop I wanted to go (to the) Model Shop.
Aubrey - Where was this?
Desmond - Up on the hill, along Pearl Street.
Aubrey - Why did you want to go to the Model Shop.?
Desmond - There was nothing new about the work, and I wanted something new, something experimental. Joe Bilodeau he was the foreman there then.
Aubrey - This was in the Model Shop?
Desmond - Mr. Garand was there at the time too. I had a pleasant experience with Mr. Garand, (when) I was working on his machines. He had broken English where we would say radius, he would say
?radderish. I stayed up there awhile. Then I went back down to the Water Shop. Things were really fizzling out then. Men had the opportunity to go to one of these places such as Rock Island, Picatinny, or to DCA (Defense Contract Agency). Different places like that.
Aubrey - Where was the Defense Contract Agency?
Desmond - Hartford was the office, then they would send you to different plants. I went down there for an interview and they accepted me. They sent me down to a place called Casco in Bridgeport (Connecticut). They were making personnel mines. The ones you plat in the ground and a truck runs over it and blows up. I worked for Casco for three years. Then I received a promotion, and they sent me to Consolidated Diesel in Greenwich (Connecticut). I worked for Consolidated Diesel for a while. When I was the retirement age there was a RIF (Reduction in Force). Since I was so near retirement the Supervisor said "Stanley you're going to be let go, you have two more weeks here." Then they changed their mind, and said, "you're gonna stay here Stanley." I told them I wanted to go. So here's what they did, they sent me back to the Armory. General Electric was in there at the time. They disposed of all machinery. Sent it to colleges and a place called the caves. It was my job to work along with Tom Seaver. To see that all the machines had the necessary equipment to go where they'd like. Like the faceplate and the checks, they had to be combat ready. They were going to be stored in a cave down south. I was not to accept any machine that wasn't ready.
They wanted to just plug it in and be ready to manufacture. I had to make sure all those machines were ready.
Aubrey - While you were working for Casco and these other places were you no longer working for the Armory?
Desmond - No, this was DCA (Defense Contract Agency).
Aubrey - I guess what I mean is what [the] Defense Contract Agency means relative to your government employment? Now had you officially terminated at the Armory when you went on to this?
Desmond - No, you transferred to another agency. If you worked at Rock Island, you were just transferred to Rock Island. I had a card that would identify me so I could go from plant to plant. Sometimes I'd be called over to Remington Arms, and sometime I would be called to other plants such as Dictaphone.
End of Tape 1
Tape 2 August 11, 1986
Desmond - At Consolidated Diesel, and there they made these mobile missile launchers. At one time that was known as a ?condenance plant, ?Condenance Publications {Condé Nast?}. It was a big beautiful plant outside of Stanford. In between Stanford and Greenwich. Then they sent me back to Springfield to clear out the Armory.
Aubrey - How long did this packing up of the Armory take?
Desmond - About a year, because they had different [department] heads. Johnny DiMarco was the head of it at one time. Then the last one to come in to get the show on the road was Mr. ?Trembley. I retired right then and there when they sent me back to the Armory. When they sent me back to clear out the Armory, they gave me a party.
Aubrey - Where was your party held?
Desmond - The Sip and Dine, it was across from Lido's. A small little place like that, because there was only a small force of
us. Mr. Seaver he had this party there. A had a big party with this wife here, when they moved me up here from Casco. They gave me a beautiful party down there. It was held at a place called Marinols on Steeple Road. They gave me a beautiful cassette there. We went down the night before, because they next day was [my] retirement.
Aubrey - Your retirement from the Armory was in what year?
Desmond - (It was in) '67 or '68, right in there, I'm not sure what year, that's when I asked to go with DCA, because they were
going to clear the place out.
Aubrey - When you heard about the Armory closing where you already gone by this time?
Desmond - No, I left before [that]. These jobs were being posted on the bulletin board. These positions were open. Like Rock
Island out in Chicago, Picatinny', and [the] Watertown Arsenal you could just transferred over. Quite a few fellows did. I was gone when the Armory closed. I was down in Bridgeport with the Defense Contract Agency.
Aubrey - Out of the extensive experience you had, what did you think when you heard they were planning to close the Armory?
Desmond - I was sick, honest and truly. Mr. McNamara, he came down and we had gone up on this hill to celebrate that the Armory was going to be a National Historic site. He was in the building no more than fifteen minutes, walked in one door and out the other. We were waiting to see what his observations were, that the Armory would still be the Springfield Armory. In his mind I think it was just going to be another historical site. We were disappointed. There was about two years along the line that these different positions were open at these different installations
that one could transfer there. My choice was not to go to Chicago. I wanted to stay in New England, and they accepted me in Bridgeport down at Casco.
Aubrey - You had mentioned working with Mr. Garand, how was he to work with compared to the other men? Was he easy to follow?
Desmond - He was critical. My experience with him was only in a few instances. The Model Shops were run by Mr. Joe Bilodeau, and if a particular component that I was working on was something Mr. Garand was curious about he would come see how I was progressing.
Aubrey - He would usually work with Mr. Bilodeau?
Desmond - ,Mr. Bilodeau was',the supervisor. He would assign me [projects]. I enjoyed my stay up on the hill at the Model shop.
Aubrey - Did you like it better than the Water Shops as a place to work?
Desmond - I don't know, I always seemed to have an inclination to go back to the Water Shops.
Aubrey - Where did you work at the Water Shops? Which building or floor?
Desmond - I used to do a lot of trouble-shooting. They used to send me up the hill to building 104 to trouble-shoot. See they moved some of the operations up there. I knew the firing pin, and I knew the clips, and I also knew the magazines. Whenever they had trouble with those operations I would take the bus up there to trouble-shoot. They had a bus that ran back and forth.
Aubrey - Was this a city bus?.
Desmond - No, the Armory always had a bus run between the Water Shops and the Hill Shops.
Aubrey - If they always had a bus; do you realize that you are the first person to mention it?
Desmond - You never heard about the bus?
Aubrey - This happens in the oral history interviews. Something you know, but no one happens to mention it.
Desmond - They would say that the bus would be down at 1 o'clock, be ready to get on it. It held about 24 people or more.
Aubrey - You were there then during World War II?
Desmond - Yes, from the beginning to the end.
Aubrey - They had a lot more employees during the war time. They went to shifts.
Desmond - I was fortunate enough to stay on days. I was so familiar with the clips, magazines, and trigger guards that they sent me to the Clip Shop. It was across the pond down in the Water Shops. I would be there in case any trouble happened, [like] if the presses went down. It would be my job to get them
presses going. There would be a couple of men working there, but not on thing I was.
Aubrey - If a machine went down was there a thing that was usually the cause?
Desmond - Yes, sometimes a section of the die would break. Or there was a malfunction and the stock would jam up. It would cause serious accidents. My job was to do as much as I could to get it running again. So that it could run continuously, because it was run night and day.
Aubrey - Does running that continuously make a problem for the machine?
Desmond - Yes.
Aubrey - Is it more likely to breakdown if it can't cool off for example?
Desmond - Well no, sometimes it could be failure and break down of a component that is in that particular section. Some sections were more weaker than others and they required more care. They were rather fragile, like the beating blade, anything could go wrong. Sometimes the roll feed wouldn't carry the stock along, and the presser [would] come down three or four times on the same place and cause a big mess in-there. That was my job, because I built and knew the dies from the first [ones I built]. I was balled out one time, because I went in at 3 and I was supposed to go home at 11, but stayed all night. They said, "Stanley, you're not supposed to' do that." I said, "this machine was down, what was I supposed to do go home with a machine down." Mr. Gelinas and Mr. Turner balled me out.
Aubrey - How did you get to work usually? Did you drive?
Desmond - I happened to stay right in the hill section. At first my home was on Quincy street, number 117.
Aubrey - Did you walk?
Desmond - I would trot.
Aubrey- What did you do about lunch? Did you eat in the cafeteria or did you pack a lunch?
Desmond - They had a cafeteria in the Water shops for the longest time, and I'd always eat in the cafeteria. When I was on the hill I'd use that cafeteria as well.
Aubrey - How was the food?
Desmond - The food was good.
Aubrey - How long did you have for lunch?
Desmond - I'm almost sure we had an hour for lunch.
Aubrey - Did you have much contact with the commanding officer?
Desmond - Yes.
Aubrey - Did you see him? Was he a person who made himself known and around? '-
Desmond - I was looking for a picture of him handing me a certificate, but I couldn't find that picture to save my life. I do have a picture of us at the Water Shops.
Desmond - When was Guion [there] ?
Aubrey - He was there from 1950- 1953. Then Harlan was there very briefly . I
Desmond - Yeah, but I never met Harlan.
Aubrey - Then Colonel Crowe came in August of '53.
Desmond # I never met him.
Aubrey - Then Ludlam.
Desmond - I remember Colonel Ludlam.
Aubrey - Mr. Harlan was called back again, he seems to be their fill in guy. Then Ludlam again. Hurlbut, Medinnis, Durrenberger, Sweeney and Zumwalt?
Desmond - I don't remember Zumwalt? I wasn't there for the closing.
Aubrey # When you went there was it '39?
Desmond # '39 or the first of I40.Colonel Stewart was there.
Aubrey - Did you have anything to do with the apprentice school at the Armory? You had been in an apprentice school yourself.
Desmond - In this way here I did. I was the leading man with die and tool makers. After Mr. Macintosh and the boys finished they would send them down to Water Shops and worked with me. To learn about die making. Mr. ?Brezinsky was down there, they used to call him Breezy. Mr. Macintosh, ran the school. I remember so many names, Allan Stewart, he worked for me. I had boys who were exceptional apprentice graduates, like Alan Stewart, and Don Lynde. They would work with me and I would give them a die to work on. They did very well, but Alan Stewart was exceptional.
Aubrey - Was this while they were still in the school program, or after they had finished it?
Desmond - After they finished it, this was part of their training for die making. They had all sorts of tool making on the hill, on jigs and fixtures. On the hill they had fixtures by the millions.. But dies were confined to the Water Shops. I was a grade 21. When I first came in there I was a (grade) 13, %hen I was made a 14. When I was made a supervisor, a die maker leader I was [promoted to] 21. Like the gauge makers and the drop forgers. That was nice, it gave me more money to take care of my family.
Aubrey - Were there any women who worked in your section?
Desmond - Yea, there were a couple of women, but the were working for Joe Fournier. There were some coming and going all the time. There was one named Laura ?Boutell. Laura ?Boutell and her husband owned this place up in Savoy. That's how I first heard of Savoy. They had 61 acres that they wanted to sell. I bought that place up there, I got the money from the credit union. That was the beginning of the 250 acres that I have today.
Aubrey - Was Laura ?Boutell a office worker?
Desmond - No, she was a machine operator.
Aubrey - Did you ever run into a women named Mary ? Uraque, I think she married a Grant?
Desmond - Was she a colored girl?'
Aubrey - No, I think she was white, and she was at the Water Shops for awhile, but I don't know in which section. I think she worked for Happy Fournier?
Desmond - I remember Happy, he was kind of short guy. I think he worked in the barrel shop.
Aubrey - Did you ever come across the union?
Desmond - Yea, I was a member of the American Federation of Government Employees. All these old timers were there, and they had a separate union. I was surprised that they asked me to join. The Federation of Federal Employees their grand bunch was a bunch of old timers, men who were there for years. We used to meet over
on Oak Street once a month. I was included on all the meetings. Some other fellow, a man named Bell, came along with NAGE. They were trying to get me to switch over, he tried to unionize the place. The Federation of Federal Employees was quieter, you wouldn't even know there was a union there. This is what you might say was an elite group. I don't know if you ever heard of them or not?
Aubrey - Yes.
Desmond - I was a member of that. I stayed with them all the time. I didn't go over to NAGE because there seemed to be too much controversy.
Aubrey - What does NAGE stand for?
Desmond - National Association of Government Employees, you've heard of them haven't you?
Aubrey - Yes.
Desmond - I belonged to the American Federation of Government Employees. They tried to get members [to switch to NAGE], but we were satisfied with what we had.
Aubrey - When did you join the American Federation? Was it early in your career?]
Desmond - Yeah, it was early in my career, but not too early. I had been there quite a while. I was approached by a German fellow named ?Fritz Smith, he asked would I like to belong to the union. I didn't care too much for unions, because I had worked for a concern a short while in New York before I went to work for Bell Telephone Company. They had paid high wages, paid for our dentists and gave us bonuses. We made all sorts of dies to make novelty jewelry. They would get an idea on novelty jewelry, and we would make the dies quickly to mass-produce the jewelry, before a competitor. He was paying top wages. While other people were getting thirty-five and forty dollars a week, we were getting eighty to eighty-five. He paid for supper and stuff like that. He said, "O.K. if you want a union here I'm gonna close the place up. And, "I'll be doggoned if he didn't close it up." That was the Button and Mold Company.

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